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July 2011

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From:
David Goldsworthy <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Indonesian language list <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:21:31 -0700
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Hi Tim,
 
If I could offer some input, but first some background - I have never done the 
Salatiga program, but after graduating from Indonesian studies at Griffith Uni 
in 1993, I went to live in the hills outside Salatiga with a Javanese host 
family. There I spent time just living from my own savings and experiencing 
Javanese life, returning multiple times during the subsequent few years, then 
eventually marrying into a Javanese family also in the outskirts of Salatiga. So 
based in this experience I offer some comments below which may or may not be the 
opinions of others. Each comment comes after the ‘To BAHASA members’ 
descriptions - 

 
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SCENARIO 1: 
 (a fellow customer at a warung (eating stall) in town.

Ari Wahyuni, male, 22 y.o.

"You're sitting next to each other on a bench with other customers, eating
your meals. He is neatly dressed, and looks like an office worker. He asks you
a polite small talk question, and you reply and ask him something too.

YOUR CHOICE:"________________________ "

[e.g. to say "Have YOU...? // Did YOU...?"

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<To BAHASA members> : In Scenario 1 "stranger in warung" above,
I'm especially interested in judgements or comments on each of these terms:

- kamu (too familiar here, from the 20-21 y.o. Australian?)

- anda (It is little used between Indon native speakers in face to face
conversation. But Indons sometimes address foreigners as Anda. Is it
appropriate coming from the 20-21 y.o. Aust, here?

- "mas" (None of the Australians knew “mas” before
they arrived in Salatiga, so I’m also interested in what other choices of
theirs might be acceptable)

- "Ari" (if they had learned his name)

- "mas Ari


DG says:
 Ideally, the student would know about ‘Mas’. However, as an Australian fresh 
from university, they will be most prepared with Anda (the ‘safe’ option). Use 
of ‘Anda’ may be met with a slightly bemused expression. Given that he looks 
like an office worker, but obviously of similar age with the Australian student, 
Bapak would be ok too but Ari may still react a bit bemused, being only 22 and 
probably still single, to which Ari might (hopefully) reply with something like 
‘Panggil saja Ari.’ 

 
From then on, ‘Ari’ would be quite acceptable; even better if preceded by ‘Mas’ 
( don’t think you could go one day in Central Java without being exposed to the 
use and meaning of Mas / Mbak, so it wouldn’t take long for the Aust student to 
gain of knowledge of these terms of address). 

 
Of course, Ari may reciprocate with Anda or even ‘You’ (e.g. Apa You lagi kuliah 
di UKSW?’), but this may be more reflective of a Javanese uncertainty with 
exactly which level of pronoun to address the foreigner (Try learning to speak 
Javanese in Java, and you’ll know what I mean) and thus not advisable for the 
foreigner to follow suit. 

 
Though many Central Javanese youth are comfortable with ‘kamu’, particularly 
those more attune to the more egalitarian styles of Indonesian spoken in the 
capital, I would advise learners to avoid this until on much more familiar terms 
with the other party. 

 
So, in the absence of ‘Mas’ I would choose Anda and then ‘Ari’ if invited to do 
so.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SCENARIO 2 

a becak driver in town.

Ahmad Fahmi, male, 50 y.o.

You want to go from the main campus of your university to the other
campus. You take a becak, for the first time during your stay, and during your
journey you and the becak driver talk together a little."

YOUR CHOICE: "________________________ "  

[e.g. to say "Have YOU...? // Did YOU...?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<To BAHASA members>: In Scenario 2 "becak driver" above: I'm
especially interested in judgements or comments on each of these terms:

- bapak. [Does the big age difference between 20-21 y.o. student and 50 y.o.
becak driver automatically require "'bapak"? Or is the full form 'bapak'
over-respectful from a customer to a becak driver? It seems more
deferential than vocative short form "pak".

- anda [again, it’s a non-native choice, but coming from an Australian?)

- mas 

- pak [I think of ‘pak’ as only acceptable in the vocative slot, e.g.
"Pagi, Pak". But one Indonesian living in Europe recently called me
"pak" in the pronoun slot throughout a long email message to me. That
made me wonder if the Australian students could get away with it here.]


DG says:
In Central Java, although Javanese may be comfortable with social structures 
allowing them to place themselves at a certain position in relation to other 
individuals based on occupation, for the foreigner, the best choice is to always 
be as polite as possible with anyone. Also, I know first hand of Javanese who, 
when speaking to older becak drivers, will routinely address them politely using 
‘Bapak’. So my advice, always go with ‘Bapak’ when addressing any male obviously 
somewhat older than oneself. 

 
Mas is perfectly acceptable if the driver is obviously a young guy of similar 
age with the Australian student. In the students’ absence of Mas, just use 
Bapak’ even if he’s young. It just seems (to me) preferable to Anda which seems 
stiflingly distant.
 
Anda again is the 'safe' option. 'Kamu' is completely inappropriate for an 
Australian student of 21 years to use with any Javanese adult, no matter what 
social position they hold.
 
BTW, ‘’Pak‘in the pronoun slot seems to be somewhat colloquial.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SCENARIO 3

a domestic servant in your homestay house

Siti Hartati, female, 18 y.o.

"You have seen each other around the house most days during the last six
weeks, as she goes about her cleaning duties. You sometimes exchange greetings,
and occasionally a couple of brief small-talk remarks."

"YOUR CHOICE:"________________________ "   

[e.g. to say "Have YOU...? // Did YOU...?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<<To BAHASA members>>: In Scenario 3 "servant" above, I'm
especially interested in judgements and comments on each of these terms in the
pronoun slot:

 mbak [Again, as none of the Australians knew “mbak” before
they arrived in Salatiga, I’m also interested in what other choices of theirs 
might
be acceptable)

- Siti [if the 20-21 y.o. Australian student had learned the
servant’s name]

- mbak Siti

- kamu
- anda 


While a domestic servant will be quite used to being addressed in a low form 
such as ‘kamu’, other Javanese may still use more polite forms such as ‘Siti’ 
and ‘mbak’. In Central Java, ‘mbak’ is still polite and perfectly acceptable for 
a foreigner to address an 18 yr old pembantu using ‘mbak’. Neverthelss, for the 
student having not known the term ‘mbak’, I think the safest option is just the 
first name, Siti, rather than 'kamu'. Using ‘Anda’ will again be met with some 
(though not obvious to the student) bemusement on the part of the pembantu, but 
again is the 'safe' option.

 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SCENARIO 4

a local university student/ staff member of your language school

Benny Pribadi, male, 22 y.o.

"He is a local university student who also works part-time in the computer
lab at your language school. You've seen him in the lab on most days during
your six weeks there, and you often greet each other. Occasionally he has
helped you with something, e.g. if there is a problem with the printer.

You ask him over to help you with a minor computer problem, and this time you
chat a little too."

YOUR CHOICE: "________________________ "  

[e.g. to say "Have YOU...? // Did YOU...?"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<To BAHASA members>: In Scenario 4 "student-cum-staff member"
above, I'm especially interested in judgements or comments on each of these
terms in the pronoun slot:

- kamu

- anda

- mas [Again, none of the Australians knew “mas” before they arrived in
Salatiga, so I’m also interested in what other choices of theirs might be
acceptable)
- Mas Benny [If the Australian student had learned
this person’s name.]

- Benny


I think my comments from the first scenario apply to this scenario as wel, 
although being a Uni student and obviously of similar age, Bapak would be 
inappropriate. So initially I'd go with the safe option 'Anda' until a more 
appropriate term is established through the course of conversation.
 
I think the safest thing to assume when speaking Indonesian to Central Javanese, 
is that they speak Indonesian (generally) as Javanese. Thus Javanese norms of 
politeness still very much influence pronoun choices. Even 1st person choices 
can be affected in the same way. I remember being corrected quietly when I chose 
the term 'aku' rather than 'saya' when addressing another Javanese adult in 
Indonesian, as 'aku' is also the low (kasar) form of the 1st person in Javanese.


Hope this is of use. Typed rather hurriedly without much time to really think it 
through. I'd be very interested in what others think.
Regards,
 
DavidG

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